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  • #5343

    Anonymous

    Hello Ellie,

    I am a parent of a child who has supposedly been educated until recently using TEACCH. My first comment: TEACCH is a structure. It has no content. It doesn’t actually TEACH anything!

    The way it’s been used in my child’s “education”: visual schedules, timetables. Workstations. Timetables, routines. Locks on internal doors. Keep them sitting quietly. Keep smiling when the parents visit the school.

    But nobody knows how to assess, set targets, TEACH, or assess when something has been taught and it’s time to move on.

    As you are in an academic environment, would you be able to find out whether there is any truly independent peer-reviewed published research that measures what the efficacy of TEACCH is in comparision with Applied Behavioural Analysis when it comes to EDUCATING children with autism? That is, what do they learn, how well, what happens to their performance on standardised tests, what are their functional skills like after a few years of TEACCH or a few years of ABA? Please, if you find anything, post a reference, or a link to an on-line source.

    I am very concerned TEACCH is only being promoted because 1. It’s virtually nil cost to the LEA and 2. “We’ve got to thrwo some kind of sop to parents to keep them quiet: let’s offer TEACCH. They will be impressed by the lable, it will take them years to find out what it really is , and by that time we’ll have saved ourselves £££££££s.”

    #5344

    Anonymous

    apologies for typos.

    #5406

    Anonymous

    well know you have me worried i have a daughter with severe autism severe learning difficulties she is non verbal they have just started the TEACCH programme with her at her school ,they have been unable to cope with her up until now ,Sunfield are training them ,it seems to be having a good effect on my daughter but now you have me worried [xx(]

    #5345

    Anonymous

    Janice’s long posts are very well worth reading, as is Sally’s. It’s as well to find out that there are problems with TEACCH sooner rather than later. What does TEACCH actually teach? Nothing, that I can see. It provides a structure, but if the teachers don’t know what to put in it (and they are nearly all without the right training to do this or the resources they need)it remains an empty shell.

    #5368

    Anonymous

    As mentioned TEACCH is a framework in which teaching operates. It still requires skilled, intuitive teachers as does mainstream teaching, to bring children forward. There will be teachers more able to do this than others, again, as in mainstream, and certain children will ‘gell’ with certain teachers and approaches. What I like about TEACCH is how well it complements and fits in with other approaches and enhances them. It doesn’t offer a cure. I don’t expect one, and that is in no way being negative. It is impossible to tell how our children will ‘turn out’ and whether using one approach or another would have changed that outcome. I can only assess both my autistic boys on whether they are progressing and, more importantly, whether they are happy. Thankfully, they are both.
    With regard to the ‘fitting in’ aspect I’ve had similar discussions with regard to education for deaf children (I’m the only hearing member of my family) Whether we like it or not, or it fits our politically correct outlook, the deaf community is a seperate entity. My brothers, one is an accountant, the other a teacher of the deaf, both have social lives almost exclusively within the deaf community. This doesn’t mean that they are in any way socially inadequate, it is their preference. I know of families with deaf children who have sent their children to schools which actively discourage signing, their argument being that they have to live in the ‘real world’ where the majority of people don’t sign. As a result the children leave school unable to actively participate in the mainstream community and unable to communicate wth the deaf community.
    Perhaps with an almost exclusively special needs family/upbringing my aspirations for my own children differ from parents who are desperate for their children to be ‘normal’ but I certainly do not feel that I am in anyway ‘shortchanging’ my children or that I have chosen the ‘cheap’ option. The TEACCH structure is offering my children the change to participate in the ‘real world’ to the best of their ability and wishes and has drastically reduced the frustration, tantrums,confusion and upsets they endured prior. Dave.

    #5346

    Anonymous

    Jayne,

    Parents are grateful for any help from any source that might help them cope with their child, especially if that help involves a friendly adult visiting them at home to help their child. But they are continually encouraged to accept that they have to give up hope first: this is the line that is peddled by the NHS and LEAs: autism, nothing can be done, go home and get on with it. (Gets the parents off their backs very effectively.)
    There is a growing body of research concerning which both Prof. Geraldine Dawson and Prof. Pat Howlin seem to be saying that, while the research picture is far from being a full picture, research evidence does support the view that the best approach is ABA (sometimes called EIBI)and that this should be both intensive and started when the child is as young as possible. If you google “Autumn National Day Conference 9 November 2006: Report” you will find a summary of Pat Howlin’s comments made at that conference.

    #5347

    Anonymous

    I hope this is OK to quote (it’s a short section from the report I referred to above):
    Patricia Howlin, Professor of Clinical Child Psychology at the Institute of Psychiatry, looked at the psychological interventions available for children and young people with developmental disorders (many linked with autism treatments) and the evidence base for their efficacy.

    Of the many interventions available, whatever their direction – traditional,complementary, alternative – there was little methodology, control studies or randomised control trials.
    Even amongst the better-known programmes, such as TEACCH (teaching and education for autistic and communication disordered children), PECS (picture exchange communication system) and Functional Analysis, there was only a moderate evidence-base, with the most impressive results being available with the EIBI (early intensive behavioural intervention).

    Professor Howlin outlined some of the questions raised in respect of these programmes, such as for what sorts of children do they work, how long should treatment last, how many hours per day/week, what age should treatment commence etc. Whilst there appeared to be no definitive answers, most effective therapies appeared to be those with direct parental involvement, intensive behavioural intervention and multi-component early intervention.

    The general recommendation by the National Autism Plan UK was that treatment should last a minimum of 12 months and be an average of 15-20 hours per week and that an early diagnosis and therapy did not appear to reduce opportunities for later intervention. In conclusion, Professor Howlin summed up that no single programme was likely to work with all children with all types of problem. However, techniques developed from psychological, educational, social and language research/theory could have a major impact on improving the quality of life for children and their families.

    #5393

    Anonymous

    Hi Margaret,

    I find it quite insulting that you seem to suggest that myself and my colleagues are just ‘a friendly adult visiting them at home’ helping parents to manage their child and that these parents are so ill informed that they will accept anything.

    All the members of the team I work for are trained in ASD and TEACCH and work with families to empower them to work, educate and care for their children.
    Indeed we will not work with parents unless they are fully committed to the hard work involved and the expectation, from day 1, is that it is their job learn how to use this intervention and that we are there only to faciliate this.
    During our input we are continually assessing and modifying our approach to make sure it is approprate to meet the needs of both children and parents at every stage. We do not sit down holding parent’s hands and drinking tea.

    On the other hand I know of a number of families who advertise for helper, who are not specially trained, to work on a rota with their children on other interventions (mainly ABA). Some of these helpers have had no previous experience and are reliant only on parents providing their training and guidance.

    You sound as though you have had a bad experience of TEACCH in an educational setting, could this be due to inexperience or lack of professionalism of the staff involved? If you haven’t seen it used correctly it is difficult to judge. Did you try to introduce it at home and if so did you have support/training to do so?

    I agree with you that TEACCH, if used correctly, certainly should NOT be about keeping children contained and quiet for visitors. This sounds dreadful but it is not how TEACCH is intended.

    I am not dismissing ABA or similar approraches as I am not trained in them or know them in enough detail to compare them against the benefits of TEACCH I am merely making the point that if you haven’t seen TEACCH used correctly – as your postings might suggest you haven’t – then it is difficult to make a fair comparison.

    #5348

    Anonymous

    Jayne,

    Of course I can’t say anything about how you and your colleagues work,as I haven’t seen this. I was thinking of the NAS “franchised” Early Bird course. We parents all gave good feedback at the time – you don’t want to do anything else with someone who’s visited you at home a few times. But several years down the line I think the course was useless, except in that we got to meet other parents. I met one of them recently and her current verdict on Early Bird was that it was “a complete waste of time”.Its value was really that the LEA and the NHS could claim they were providing early intervention. I think it would be lying to describe the Early Bird in this way.

    However I do note that this web site appears to advocate that TEACCH and only TEACCH to be used in Northampton. This has to be wrong. (See my posts above re Pat Howlin’s comments.)One approach does not fit all.

    LEAs claim to be using TEACCH. Usually it is as I have described in my son’s school. It is exceptional for anything further to be offered. TEACCH is not offered in the home and I personally wouldn’t want it, any way. My son needs to be TAUGHT not just managed. He has disabilities. Autism is not a culture, it is a collection of behaviours caused by a variety of neuro-developmental problems. To say it is a culture is total tripe: yet that is what Division TEACCH asserts. I remember when the school first told me they used TEACCH I thought great, what are they going to teach him! Eventually I realised it was nothing. By the way the legal duty to educate lies with the LEA and not with the parents. The LEA should be providing the education and not expecting parents to do this work for them.

    Any ABA programme should be designed and frequently monitored and supervised by a qualified BCABA. Tutors are not just recruited and left to get on with it. The programme is very specific, the targets are very specific, the way of working is very specific and the tutors are taught to implement all these. It may be that the family you know simply can’t afford to do the job properly. The LEA ought to pay, but getting them to do so is a long and difficult and expensive process.

    Schools recruit learning support assistants who do almost all the teaching of children with autism. Yet commonly these assistants have little or even no training (apart from Health and Safety and Positive Handling).

    #5329

    Anonymous

    Well, its nice to see a bit of debate about teacch in the UK. It is glaringly obvious that the LACK of debate about the use of teacch in special schools indicates lack of awareness of parents about it.

    I would like to reiterate what Margaret has said about the reasons for using teacch. The general belief is that children like mine who are “autistic”, not aspergers, but “autistic” is that they are debilitated, that they will probably never work, never go to university and never amount to much of anything.

    That is why they are offered crap provision. There are so many studies and so much research being done on provision being offered to kids with Aspergers in the UK, but not to kids with “autism”.

    Why? Cause kids with aspergers have a “chance” as far as the health and education authorities are concerned, they go to university, sure isnt Bill Gates allegedly “aspergers”. Our kids on the other hand are expected to be thankful for what they get.

    Teacch is incredibly harmful to our kids, i wouldnt send my dog to a teacch school and i make it my business to let parents i know in my own “autism” circles what i think about teacch. You know what? A lot of them still dont get it. You know why? Because they have never been offered anything else and they feel inured to it, afraid to “let it go” in case nothing else gets offered.

    Its maddening listening to parents say how “well” their child has come on. Compared to what I say? I can teach my dog Rover to put blue balls with blue balls and to pick up a newspaper from a waste basket. But do i want to limit my child to these tasks?

    You dont get anything from the government, for free, that is worth anything. Teacch is cheap, easy to run, and is a testament to just what society thinks of our kids, which isnt much.

    Puhlease refrain from trying to convince parents like me who have had their children damaged by teacch that it has any efficacy. You are talking through your hat. The philosophy of teacch stinks, its has a built in self destruct button.

    For anyone reading these threads please pass this website on to people you know who can come here and tell us their “real” experiences of having their children in a teacch program.

    Chances are we will NOT hear a lot of gushing about division teacch.

    Parents really need to wake up to what is being done to their autistic children.

    Ultimately, it is ME, my child’s parent, who is responsible for his education, not a poorly trained teacch “technician”, who views my child as a train wreck.

    I have my problems with ABA as well but i would take ABA any day, even with all the problems that go with it, over teacch.

    In a few years time, when parents wise up, you will see teacch losing any credibility in the public eye. Parents of autistic children are growing in numbers, just like the children themselves. Teacch cant fool all of us all the time and more and more informed parents are demanding their children be accorded the rights of their non autistic peers in acquiring an education, not dog training.

    #5388

    Anonymous

    Hi Margaret & Janice,

    I am not sure where you live and obviously cannot speak for other authorities.

    But just to clarify a couple of points:

    You are wrong to say that TEACCH is not offered in the home – in my county it certainly is as that is what our Team does and indeed it works best when used across different environments, through out the child’s day and not just in school.

    Also, if used correctly, TEACCH DOES teach and not just manage.

    It concerns me that you seem to have such low regard for the opinion of other parents. When you make your feelings about TEACCH known to other parents in your “autistic” circles you say of them:
    ‘You know what? A lot of them still dont get it. You know why? Because they have never been offered anything else and they feel inured to it, afraid to “let it go” in case nothing else gets offered.’

    Are you saying that parents less able to judge how ‘well their child is coming on’ than you are? Surely they are the best judge of their own child.

    Could it not simply be that their opinion is valid, that they ARE happy with TEACCH and that it is just that different approaches suit different children and TEACCH was not approprate for your child whereas another intervention is working better.

    Many of the families we have worked with have, indeed researched other interventions, and for their own reasons, have decided that they would like to impliment TEACCH at home. On the other hand some families do not feel it is appropriate for them or their family set up.

    #5349

    Anonymous

    Jayne, I actually do think there is a big problem of ignorance. It took me years to work out what was really going on between the NHS and the LEA.
    Parents are expected to choose what’s right for their child without having enough information. I was desperate to put my child in a special school at 2 because there was nothing else for him in our LEA area and I believed (and was advised by the local diagnosing clinical psychologist) that X school was good. The Head teacher assured me my son would be in the right place with them. How very wrong I was to believe this.
    The LEA Ed Psych who did the assessment for my child’s Statement refused to give an opinion – in fact said they were forbidden to do so by the LEA – when I asked for advice concerning what sort of education my child should get and where he should go. The report the Ed Psych wrote contained recommendations I actually did not understand. In fact it recommended ABA! But what he got was a bog-standard special school which claimed to be implementing TEACCH, and which had no idea what ABA even was.(Neither did I at the time.)
    Parents also don’t understand how LEAs operate: “best interests of the child” commonly mean nothing of the sort, but they really man the bests interests of saving money.I was caught out by the Statementing procedure – I didn’t understand what the Statement meant. I didn’t know what to do when the Statement wasn’t being implemented. I didn’t understand the full procedure of the Annual Review – the Head’s game here was to sent in their signed account of the Annual Review without showing a draft to anyone who had been present, leaving out disagreements and misrepresenting others’ views.
    The LEA toyed with me for years.
    I think now it would have been better for him to have had nothing for a further year and to have gone into mainstream nursery. This would still have been totally inadequate for him, but he would have had 1:1 work and have been with people who did not come from a special ed background. My experience certainly confirms the widely-held view that the special ed system has rock bottom expectations of its pupils. It took me years to find a way get him out of the school.

    There is a massive amount of jargon in the education world, and it is used daily to bamboozle parents. Have you seen SOS!SEN’s teatowel which gives some choice examples of LEA-speak? Along the lines of “these rules don’t apply in this Authority”?

    I have been to meetings of parents of children with autism to discover I was the only one to have heard of and to have read the National Autism Care Plan, or the Good Practice Guidance for autism.

    At a recent parents’ meeting there was general astonishment that it was possible to get speech therapy quantified in a Statement, and widespread misunderstanding of Annual Reviews.

    #5335

    Anonymous

    I am in a support group for parents of autistic children. Its only been running for a short while. The committee brought in some speakers from a larger ASD support group to give us some pointers. One of the first questions they asked was, “do you all know what a statement is?”

    do you know how many people put up their hands? 3 out of about 20. The parents in this group all had children under 5, most of whom were just about to enter nursery or primary 1.

    So yes, parents are ignorant. Please refresh yourself what “ignorance” means, i.e. not knowing the facts. This does not equate with lack of IQ or being “stupid”. Parents are kept deliberately ignorant by the school system so they dont have the ability to ask questions in the first place.

    Do you really think that every parent who has an autistic child has a copy of the Code of Practice by their bedside? or that they read copious amounts of books on different intervention methods? Do they do this in Essex, Glasgow, Mosside, and Islington, the same??

    Let me tell you something, I am a parent. Jayne you are not a parent of an autistic child??? I speak for me and my own experiences of meeting, speaking and working with other parents and NO they are not aware of their rights, aware of what teacch really means (they dont even know what the acronym means, much less its philosophy or approach.)

    I was a naive parent before my child was diagnosed with autism. I knew the school system sucks generally, but having a child with special needs, parents have to learn real quick. For those who choose not to, or for those who avoid having to learn or dont feel the “need” to learn about how their child is being educated, so be it. But please, these parents cannot be making informed choices just because they “accept” that teacch is useful for their child. Just because “johnny can read the word “cat”” does not prove progress.

    Mostly, with teacch, its a case of “johnny can’t read, because he is autistic. My local teacch facility has 8 children in the class age nursery and primary 1. None, and i mean NONE of those children can speak, much less use pragmatic language. they run around like little robots, unable to make decisions for themselves learning useles tasks. In my opinion, the gushing of the teachers about how well teacch does for “our” children springs from teachers who dont know any better either.

    How do i know? Cause i visited the class in November just to see for myself. My boy was in a teacch facility for nursery for six months and i thought maybe things would change going into primary one so i gave teacch the benefit of the doubt.

    Nope, nothing changed. Those primary one children are still doing tasks that a 3 year old would do and are not encouraged to push to their “limit”.

    Teacch stinks and any parent who says that it is great, is a parent who has not investigated alternative methods of teaching, or has been put off of alternative methods of teaching, due to lack of funding or opportunity to obtain same or simply does not have the energy or will to fight anymore. There are all kinds of reasons that a parent would “say” they think teacch is effective, but that is just opinion, it cant possibly be based on fact.

    Like i said, i would send my dog to a teacch school. Even dogs need to make choices in life.

    I hear repeatedly from people like you who purport teacch has merit, that “well, that is because teacch is not being used “correctly”. What a load of B.S. Where exactly is teacch being used “correctly” then? and what would “correction” prove? I think a “correct” application of teacch would be even more damning to the child, so maybe its a godsend that schools in the UK use a “watered down” version of teacch.

    I note that there are so many courses for teacch, some lasting only 3 days. What can a teacher fresh out of university, who hasnt a clue about special needs learn in 3 days or even a month??????

    teacch proponents should be learning from us, the parents. But i dont see a two way street in that regard in the UK. the government bought teacch hook line and stinker, cause its cheap, plain and simple. Cause our kids dont matter.

    get real already and stop peddling teacch. Show the evidence in the research journals, tell gary to open his doors for some real research to take place.

    My child is being taught via science backed by decades of real research and evidence. He is not being taught by teachers who feel sorry for my child, or who have preconceptions about his “ability” or disability.

    All teacch does is make teachers feel good, and even there i think we have a problem. I know 2 teacher now, who are very sick of teacch. One of them actually came to our meeting to listen to us parents complain about the school systems. She and I had a quiet word and I know she is unhappy with the application of teacch. She has no where to go if she does not “tow the line”, as all the schools use this method, so all she can do is be the best teacher she can be. She is caught, just like the parents, in the headlights of vulnerability and ignorance.

    #5394

    Anonymous

    I would certainly agree with you both that parents are not given nearly enough support and information in dealing with the statementing process and selection of schools etc. and that they are often left feeling completely out of control over what is happening.

    It is a problem that many of our families have who get bogged down with the procedure, time scales and the jargon involved. Without support to ensure the statement is meaningful and appropriate to their child, end up with vague wording on the statements that don’t ‘tie schools down’ to providing specifcied and quantified support.

    As far as TEACCH is concerned I am confident in the fact that the families that myself and my colleagues work with have, more often than not, looked at the different interventions and have made an informed choice about using TEACCH. That is not to say that all families who have a child with ASD in my county opt for this intervention at home it’s just that we only work with those who do want to impliment it.

    However from what you have both said it seems as though you assume that any parent deciding to use TEACCH has simply made the WRONG choice and is therefore not doing what is best for their own child.

    Whilst I understand that TEACCH is not right for your child and that you have both found an intervention better suited I find your comments about other parents, particularly thinking about the families we work with, quite arrogant and difficult to understand.

    However that aside, it is clear that we are never going to agree on the merits or otherwise of TEACCH as an intervention for children and adults with ASD so there seems little point us continuing to try and persuade the other.

    I find it interesting though that you assume i have no personal experience of ASD.

    #5334

    Anonymous

    Jayne, if you have a child with ASD i do not recall you mentioning that fact. Its the first thing parents of children with ASD mention as soon as they come to boards like this talking about children who ARE ASD.

    I had personal experience of ASD well before i had a child with ASD. But unless you walk the road i do, with a child who is autistic, your “personal” experience and my daily life and knowledge of ASD will continue to be quite different.

    You are right in attempting to close this discussion between yourself and me (at least) We are not going to agree. I have no vested interest in TEACCH, it does not pay my wages, it has never done anything but damage my child and there is no point arguing with you over it when you obviously can see merit in it and I cannot.

    Which is why i came to this forum in the first place….to let other parents know that there are alternatives to teacch, much better alternatives..to let other parents know, if they dont know already, that teacch does not offer an academic curriculum to their children, keeps them wrapped up in the “cotton wool” of a teacch environment, and generally expects so little of them that their children may well lose out on life’s greatest opportunity, the opportunity to learn, to learn independently. TEACCH does not advocate limitless possibilities for our children.

    TEACCH assumes autistic children have “potentials”. When i hear this kind of language regarding my boy, i shudder. Someone else, particularly a teacher who teaches teacch, will NEVER EVER know my child’s potential. However, that teacher may well damage my child’s “potential” by placing a self fulfilling prophesy on him and assuming he will only go “so far”.

    It really really makes me ill and extraordinarily angry.

    Again for parents who are not aware of what teacch really stands for, learn what the acronym means, try and find anecdotes from other parents whose children have been in teacch programs and make yourself aware of the underpinning “philosophy” that is teacch. Read about Eric Schopler and go the teacch website and carefully examine the words that are used regarding our children.

    Funny, how kids with aspergers are not pushed into teacch programs, but our kids are. Because kids with aspergers are considered more “able”, this is verified by the fact that many of them attend mainstream schools.

    teacch will ALWAYS keep your child in a “special” school, away from his peers and away from society until he or she turns 16 or 18 and then that child will continue to be YOUR responsibility, or a ward of the state. Unless you can replicate the teacch classroom at home and for the duration of your child’s life, be prepared to have a child who simply cannot cope.

    Compare your child’s “teacch” curriculum to that of a child who is in mainstream school or even an ABA school. YOu will see a “sea” of difference.

    There is no built in language or behaviour program in teacch, so whilst your child may “behave” and do what he is told at school, what is he really like at home? Even if you get rid of the schedules in his bedroom, what would he be like if you removed the schedules?

    My boy doesnt need schedules. He was non verbal and totally without motivation or compliance a year ago. Now he has about 1000 words, is starting to use pragmatic speech and is in a mainstream school learning with his peers.

    Why you ask? Because we never lost sight of the fact that he is a little boy first, and autistic 2nd. We never put a blanket ceiling on his “potential”. we dont use words like that. We knew right from the start we had a very bright boy, who could not speak and who was autistic. Had we felt sorry for him and placed him in a classroom with 7 other autistic non verbal children with ill trained aides and teachers with “attitude” he would not be where he is today.

    Oh, i forgot, yeah we DID do that, out of our naivete. He regressed terribly for those six months. But we managed to get those six months back.

    I am a parent. I have no vested interest in teacch. when the nice lady from the local teacch school comes a calling and tells you how wonderful it would be for your child to attend their purpose built facility, do yourself a favor and wait before you make any decisions.

    Tell the nice lady that you want the best interventions for your child, interventions that are backed up by science and peer reviewed research. YOu want to see results of positive outcomes, and studies.

    Sorry you won’t get this. What you will get is clap trap and then you will be told how “autistic” your child is, and that he really needs to be in a facility that “suits” him so that he is “happy”. You will be told your child’s “happiness” is paramount.

    How happy will your child be in 2 or 3 years time when he still cannot talk, when he cannot function without a visual schedule, when he cant go to the local park on his own with friends because he has absolutely no danger awareness or social skills, or when he has no friends except those at his special school.

    Your child’s future is ultimately up to YOU, the parent. I would never let a teacher, much less a teacher at a teacch facility try to brainwash me into thinking that teacch is “good” for my “autistic” boy.

    Please please PLEASE just ask questions, if you are reading this. Put them in writing and expect answers.

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