This topic contains 174 replies, has 31 voices, and was last updated by  Anonymous 8 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #5328

    Anonymous

    Hi, I know this is a teacch forum, but can anybody tell me if there is a LOVAAS forum? or where i could get information on its benefits and limitations?

    Thanks

    #5325

    Anonymous

    Hi
    New here, but I have been reading this post with interest over the past few days. I am a teacher in a residential special school which specialises in ASD and predominantly uses TEACCH as the main approach. I say predominantly as my class group don’t use TEACCH, we use Intensive Interaction as a whole class teaching approach. The reasons for me deciding to do this was that I felt TEACCH was too much of a blanket – one size fits all – kind of approach, and that there were students in the school for whom TEACCH was not suitable. I wanted to develop a class group which had a firm focus on social skills and communication in whatever form the students choose to use. There is a lot of pressure to use TEACCH in many schools now, and I realise how lucky I have been to be able to step away from this. The end result has been that I am now getting referals from other classes/memeber of sataff to do Intensive Interaction sessions with students who don’t ‘fit’ with the TEACCH approach.
    I relate to a lot of what has been said previously in this debate about TEACCH, and having done the 5 day TEACCH course last year, also think that the approach leaves a lot to be desired with regards to building social and communication skils, which of course, are the skills that students with ASD struggle with. I really hope that other schools/teachers begin to realise that TEACCH is not the be all and end all of ASD education. No 2 students are alike,. and our teaching methods need to be adjusted accordingly. I would be intertested to hear more about other people’s TEACCH experiences, both positive and negative. Sorry for the length of this, got a bit carried away [:)]

    #5417

    Anonymous
    #5432

    Anonymous
    #5324

    Anonymous

    HI
    Am doing my postgrad research also, Just wondering if you got any volunteers for your questionnaire.
    I live in Ireland so most of my research is taking place there. It’s hard to get anyone to take us seriously don’t you think.
    Look forward to hearing from you
    Linda

    linda doherty

    #5322

    Anonymous

    quote:


    Originally posted by janiceA
    Hi Jayne. Yes, my child had a very unsuccessful experience with teacch. This became painfully evident to me when we pulled him from his teacch class and started an ABA program at home and implemented an ABA trained therapist in his school environment. His progress was staggering. I still keep in contact with a few of the parents whose children attend my child's old school and my child has progressed immeasurably compared to their children. I think its actually painful for these parents to talk to me about my boy.

    I think you are probably quite able to answer most of the questions you ask of me, yourself and I have outlined some of the major problems i have with the teacch program already.

    I do not believe in "cures" for autism as autism is not a disease. It has been referred to many things through the ages, including "mentally retarded, autistically "handicapped" (as this web site used to refer to it), a disorder, a condition, etc etc.

    However, what i do know is that my own child is extremely bright and given the appropriate environment and provided with trained individuals who specialise in child development and behavioural intervention, children on the autistic spectrum can be prevented from developing those behaviours and "outward" appearances that isolate them from the world, making them so "different" that they cannot cope.

    More importantly, however, autistic children can and regularly do develop the cognitive ability to progress in their education without the need for outside assistance. There is no communicaton or behavioural program written into teacch and this alone should put parents off. The two most important things our kids need are not available through teacch.

    The philosophy and ethos of teacch and mesibov et al is what i find particularly galling and extremely damaging. I do not believe that autism is a "culture". Though i respect the fact my child is on the autistic spectrum, i do not know what that actually means for him as he is so young, and he is so very different from every autistic child on the planet, much less any child, autistic or not. It would be a very rare teacher who would claim to know what autism is, particularly for my child, better than what i know it is, yet that is what i get from teacch teachers. They have so much to learn, but the ethos of teacch wraps autism up very nicely in a package that is so "manageable" for the uninitiated.

    There is no one "AUTISM", and though you may have gleaned insight from your work to observe that children with ASD are often "visual", this in and of itself does not have a lot of meaning for the entire autistic population, particularly in terms of addressing their educational needs. Most boys are rambunctious and like rough and tumble, that does not mean that every preschool child should get a piggy back ride and a judo lesson in class or that it would have any efficacy.

    It is my view and the view of thousands of other parents that autism is a condition caused by an environmental assault. Some parents attribute this to the MMR/heavy metal/vaccine toxicity explanation, others attribute autism as a result of compromised immune systems unable to "detoxify". Others believe it is genetic and "unstoppable".

    I only see what i see with my own child, the child who was perfectly "normal" 3 days prior to his vaccinations, and who 3 days after was taken into hospital with legs the size of balloons and who developed deafness in one ear. (despite his deafness he overcame this and hears better than i do!)

    This was not a "culture" my boy entered into, it was a prison, not of his choosing. Teacch has no right to impose its philosophy about autism on unsuspecting parents, particularly parents who are forced to accept the teacch option because nothing else exists. Teacch may serve those parents who are at a loss to explain autism, it may lessen the pain of parents, to convince them that autism is a "culture" but i can assure you no parent i know thinks that way, not one!

    I know without the shadow of a doubt what happened to my boy and i find it particularly irking that those involved in the education of our children have the audacity to try and encourage parents to believe that autism is a "world" or that the autistic child should not be encouraged to live in our world. Autistic children did not choose to be autistic and my own boy spends most of his time trying to enter "my" world and the world of his NT peers.

    that is my opinion. Other parents are entitled to their own opinion. But in the face of very little option for parents to choose what educational approach they want for their children, i think it is wholly unfair that teacch has been hoisted upon parents. I dont remember being consulted in 1996 when teacch was adopted in my area. I do not recall parents being asked to join public consultations to discuss what THEY wanted for their children. The decision to implement teacch was generally made by social services, the LEAs etc. How convenient that they ignored all the expert parents out there who probably had much to say about the matter.

    Teacch offers a cheap and cheerful solution to teachers who simply dont have the time to truly understand our children. It is damaging because the ethos of teacch is flawed, not represented in any real truth about autism, but based on presuppositions which may or may not be held by parents of autistic children, many of whom have been convinced of teacch efficacy due to lack of option/choices.

    Children in teacch programs are kept so busy "feeding" their autism that they may appear to be happy. But in terms of any real "progress" or gains made by children in the teacch programs, there is no evidence, and there won't be any time soon, to gauge whether children in the teacch programs are succeeding with their lives. Where is the evidence, where are the control studies?? None exist and mesibov doesnt want them to exist. How long has teacch been around for now, and no real evidence of its efficacy???????? This compares very unfavourably to the mountains of research on behavioural analysis and autistic children. We are humans and we all have basically the same reasons for our behaviours. Same as autistic children. Autism doesnt bring with it these "magical and weird" behaviours. Lack of communication skills and socialisation skills bring behaviours, behaviours that condemn many autistic children to living a solitary and non independent life. Its so very sad. There is nothing organic about autistic "type" behaviours. they are all explainable, but the time, effort and money to "explain" and redirect those behaviours do not interest the school boards.

    This can't be done within the confines of teacch because the original philosophy sets the parameters geared to "feeding" autism. Children in teacch programs are considered "disabled for life", are considered a separate "culture" so they dont ever have to meet "markers" based on the NT population. It sets our kids up to fail in terms of leading lives that do not require support.

    We on the other hand have set our boy high expectations, most of which to date, he has met. He will not be needing an aide next year, he plays appropriately with non autistic children, he never went to school with other autistic children (except for 6 months in a teacch program) and he learns more and more every day how to be a social "being", not a being who is dependent on cues, cards and visual schedules.

    Teacch offers teachers a way to cope with our children. That's why its so popular with the education system. It doesnt take a brain surgeon to develop a teacch environment and generally from my own experience, the teachers i have met have only a modicum of undertanding of teacch and only a week or two of training in it.

    Compare this to our own consultant who has 12 years training in education and 7 years training and experience in child and human behaviour analysis.

    Its all down to money. Teacch is easy, ABA is not. Teacch is cheap, ABA is not.

    Teacch feeds autism, is autism specific. ABA is not.

    As i said, the proof will be in the pudding, in 10 to 15 years time. I will be very interested to see where my son's classmates will be, those children who continued with their teacch programs. I will be interested to see if they are living independent and happy lives.

    Teacch has it all sewn up though. Its ethos is basically to give autitic children the opportunity to develop to "their" best ability as opposed to expecting "THE" best they can be. It imposes an outdated and very damaging and PATRONISING value system on the children and i would not touch it with a barge pole.

    Like i said, parents may think their children are doing "great" with teacch but they will hardly know what "great" is, unless they are made aware of how other children NOT in teacch programs are faring, children like my own child, who is treated like his siblings and of whom we expect great and wonderful things just like his siblings.

    Make no mistake many many parents are aware of the vagaries of teacch. But they dont get a look in, cause the system is "all sewn up" to provide teacch. Slowly but surely parents are demanding educational interventions appropriate to THEIR child. They are fighting at the high court, they are forming support groups. They are at parliament demanding the right education for their child.

    They are not begging for teacch. I think parents are way past begging. They are demanding, and time will point to the damage that has been done to our precious children in the name of money and lack of understanding.


    #5323

    Anonymous

    Don’t wish to burst your bubble but my child has been on an ABA programme since he was 4, he is now coming up to 13. I too told everyone for the first few years, that this is the best thing available for any child with autism, especially one with no language like my son. But now 9 years on, I know only too well, that those behaviours you think you are avoiding by being on ABA do rear their ugly head no matter what programme you choose.

    It is very easy to be smug about the programme when your child is so young and starting to make progress that you have nt seen before. But before you berate other programmes and choices that other parents make, maybe you should speak to those who have been where you are.

    Don’t get your hopes up. Autism is a disease and it eats into every thing and everyone around it.

    I still believe in ABA but I no longer look at it through rose coloured glasses. I know my child has autism for life and that there is little I can do to prevent what comes with it.

    janicA wrote
    “Hi Jayne. Yes, my child had a very unsuccessful experience with teacch. This became painfully evident to me when we pulled him from his teacch class and started an ABA program at home and implemented an ABA trained therapist in his school environment. His progress was staggering. I still keep in contact with a few of the parents whose children attend my child’s old school and my child has progressed immeasurably compared to their children. I think its actually painful for these parents to talk to me about my boy.

    I think you are probably quite able to answer most of the questions you ask of me, yourself and I have outlined some of the major problems i have with the teacch program already.

    I do not believe in “cures” for autism as autism is not a disease. It has been referred to many things through the ages, including “mentally retarded, autistically “handicapped” (as this web site used to refer to it), a disorder, a condition, etc etc.

    However, what i do know is that my own child is extremely bright and given the appropriate environment and provided with trained individuals who specialise in child development and behavioural intervention, children on the autistic spectrum can be prevented from developing those behaviours and “outward” appearances that isolate them from the world, making them so “different” that they cannot cope.

    More importantly, however, autistic children can and regularly do develop the cognitive ability to progress in their education without the need for outside assistance. There is no communicaton or behavioural program written into teacch and this alone should put parents off. The two most important things our kids need are not available through teacch.

    The philosophy and ethos of teacch and mesibov et al is what i find particularly galling and extremely damaging. I do not believe that autism is a “culture”. Though i respect the fact my child is on the autistic spectrum, i do not know what that actually means for him as he is so young, and he is so very different from every autistic child on the planet, much less any child, autistic or not. It would be a very rare teacher who would claim to know what autism is, particularly for my child, better than what i know it is, yet that is what i get from teacch teachers. They have so much to learn, but the ethos of teacch wraps autism up very nicely in a package that is so “manageable” for the uninitiated.

    There is no one “AUTISM”, and though you may have gleaned insight from your work to observe that children with ASD are often “visual”, this in and of itself does not have a lot of meaning for the entire autistic population, particularly in terms of addressing their educational needs. Most boys are rambunctious and like rough and tumble, that does not mean that every preschool child should get a piggy back ride and a judo lesson in class or that it would have any efficacy.

    It is my view and the view of thousands of other parents that autism is a condition caused by an environmental assault. Some parents attribute this to the MMR/heavy metal/vaccine toxicity explanation, others attribute autism as a result of compromised immune systems unable to “detoxify”. Others believe it is genetic and “unstoppable”.

    I only see what i see with my own child, the child who was perfectly “normal” 3 days prior to his vaccinations, and who 3 days after was taken into hospital with legs the size of balloons and who developed deafness in one ear. (despite his deafness he overcame this and hears better than i do!)

    This was not a “culture” my boy entered into, it was a prison, not of his choosing. Teacch has no right to impose its philosophy about autism on unsuspecting parents, particularly parents who are forced to accept the teacch option because nothing else exists. Teacch may serve those parents who are at a loss to explain autism, it may lessen the pain of parents, to convince them that autism is a “culture” but i can assure you no parent i know thinks that way, not one!

    I know without the shadow of a doubt what happened to my boy and i find it particularly irking that those involved in the education of our children have the audacity to try and encourage parents to believe that autism is a “world” or that the autistic child should not be encouraged to live in our world. Autistic children did not choose to be autistic and my own boy spends most of his time trying to enter “my” world and the world of his NT peers.

    that is my opinion. Other parents are entitled to their own opinion. But in the face of very little option for parents to choose what educational approach they want for their children, i think it is wholly unfair that teacch has been hoisted upon parents. I dont remember being consulted in 1996 when teacch was adopted in my area. I do not recall parents being asked to join public consultations to discuss what THEY wanted for their children. The decision to implement teacch was generally made by social services, the LEAs etc. How convenient that they ignored all the expert parents out there who probably had much to say about the matter.

    Teacch offers a cheap and cheerful solution to teachers who simply dont have the time to truly understand our children. It is damaging because the ethos of teacch is flawed, not represented in any real truth about autism, but based on presuppositions which may or may not be held by parents of autistic children, many of whom have been convinced of teacch efficacy due to lack of option/choices.

    Children in teacch programs are kept so busy “feeding” their autism that they may appear to be happy. But in terms of any real “progress” or gains made by children in the teacch programs, there is no evidence, and there won’t be any time soon, to gauge whether children in the teacch programs are succeeding with their lives. Where is the evidence, where are the control studies?? None exist and mesibov doesnt want them to exist. How long has teacch been around for now, and no real evidence of its efficacy???????? This compares very unfavourably to the mountains of research on behavioural analysis and autistic children. We are humans and we all have basically the same reasons for our behaviours. Same as autistic children. Autism doesnt bring with it these “magical and weird” behaviours. Lack of communication skills and socialisation skills bring behaviours, behaviours that condemn many autistic children to living a solitary and non independent life. Its so very sad. There is nothing organic about autistic “type” behaviours. they are all explainable, but the time, effort and money to “explain” and redirect those behaviours do not interest the school boards.

    This can’t be done within the confines of teacch because the original philosophy sets the parameters geared to “feeding” autism. Children in teacch programs are considered “disabled for life”, are considered a separate “culture” so they dont ever have to meet “markers” based on the NT population. It sets our kids up to fail in terms of leading lives that do not require support.

    We on the other hand have set our boy high expectations, most of which to date, he has met. He will not be needing an aide next year, he plays appropriately with non autistic children, he never went to school with other autistic children (except for 6 months in a teacch program) and he learns more and more every day how to be a social “being”, not a being who is dependent on cues, cards and visual schedules.

    Teacch offers teachers a way to cope with our children. That’s why its so popular with the education system. It doesnt take a brain surgeon to develop a teacch environment and generally from my own experience, the teachers i have met have only a modicum of undertanding of teacch and only a week or two of training in it.

    Compare this to our own consultant who has 12 years training in education and 7 years training and experience in child and human behaviour analysis.

    Its all down to money. Teacch is easy, ABA is not. Teacch is cheap, ABA is not.

    Teacch feeds autism, is autism specific. ABA is not.

    As i said, the proof will be in the pudding, in 10 to 15 years time. I will be very interested to see where my son’s classmates will be, those children who continued with their teacch programs. I will be interested to see if they are living independent and happy lives.

    Teacch has it all sewn up though. Its ethos is basically to give autitic children the opportunity to develop to “their” best ability as opposed to expecting “THE” best they can be. It imposes an outdated and very damaging and PATRONISING value system on the children and i would not touch it with a barge pole.

    Like i said, parents may think their children are doing “great” with teacch but they will hardly know what “great” is, unless they are made aware of how other children NOT in teacch programs are faring, children like my own child, who is treated like his siblings and of whom we expect great and wonderful things just like his siblings.

    Make no mistake many many parents are aware of the vagaries of teacch. But they dont get a look in, cause the system is “all sewn up” to provide teacch. Slowly but surely parents are demanding educational interventions appropriate to THEIR child. They are fighting at the high court, they are forming support groups. They are at parliament demanding the right education for their child.

    They are not begging for teacch. I think parents are way past begging. They are demanding, and time will point to the damage that has been done to our precious children in the name of money and lack of understanding.”

    #5410

    Anonymous
    #5425

    Anonymous
    #5355

    Anonymous

    Hi Kirsty,
    How are you ? did you get my emails? I am fine though have been very frustrated as we have not had any internet for a month, thankfully we are now up and running.
    Would be good to hear from you
    Clare x

    #5332

    Anonymous

    actually autism is not a “disease” though it does have common concomitant physical maladies that accompany it.

    Autism is a neurological “disorder” for lack of better desription, that in my opinion and the opinion of thousands of other parents, is caused by toxicity.

    No, i in no way think ABA is a panacea at all. In fact a lot of it is smoke and mirrors and a load of old expensive hooey. Having had had the misfortune of going through no less than 3 consultants during the last 4 years, i know of what i speak.

    ABA which is based on behavioural science does have some merit but the question arises when it is put into practice and by whom.

    Personally, i realised my child could not learn until we healed his gut and his brain so that he could settle enough to focus and to think.

    The nature of ABA in the UK today is appalling. There are people calling themselves consultant when my grandmother knows more about childrearing than these so called experts. This is not to detract from the efficacy of knowing about childhood behaviour but alas, parents do not realise they have a lousy consultant until it is way too late, and their pocket books have been eaten into.

    sad state of affairs.

    teacch on the other hand is just plain bunkum, and prima facie B.S. Its a money maker, its a scandal and it destroys children. Again, parents do not realise this until it is too late. Also parents who have not chosen other routes for their childrens education are not exactly qualified to know that teacch has no efficacy. A parent who says that their child’s teacch program is “good”, cannot be relied upon to be speaking with any sense of “fact”, only personal opinion.

    As it stands, teacch has no scientific basis, no studies and it is absolutely amazing to me that the LEA’s get away with offering this garbage.

    Until parents start empowering themselves and thereby empowering their children, children will languish by the wayside and will continue to need institutionalisation and residential care when they grow up.

    Dont believe me? Take a chance and enrol your young child in a teacch program for the next 7 years. Thats a chance i would NEVER EVER take.

    I know what my child needs and aint no way some pumped up young teacher of teacch is going to tell me different.

    Hey, i was taught french and german and spanish for about 9 years in all. Despite learning it in grade school and in university, i am still very far from being fluent. Yet, a special ed teacher can come along and say that s/he knows how to teach my very unique son just because they have a teacch cert and a teaching cert?

    yeah right.

    Parents take control of your children and really READ what the teacch philosophy is about. Its not about empowering your children or bringing them into society, teacch is about separating them and “celebrating” their difference, their culture!!!! Ha, yeah, in a perfect world maybe? Wait till your child graduates if he or she graduates and tries to cope in real life situations with only teacch training.

    I am sorry, but you will be in for a very rude shock.

    Its all about the money, and the lousy attitudes that society and the educational establishment have about our kids. The LEA’s and doctors have little hope for our kids so they segregate them into these awful teacch programs to keep them away from real life. We will all be paying a huge huge price in 10 or 20 years when these kids have no coping skills.

    It could be your child. If you dont like what i have to say, i am sorry, but thats the truth the way i see it and its based on my own experience and my son’s sorry experience with teacch.

    People have to wise up to the fact that the schools dont give a damn and teach is just a means of putting a pretty face on a terrible problem, i.e. no real interest in our children.

    #5374

    Anonymous

    Oh dear.

    No approach is any good. There is no evidence of any success. No professionals, however qualified or experienced are able to teach. It is indeed a sad state of affairs.

    Will your grandmother be running any courses in the foreseeable future?

    #5333

    Anonymous

    thats four assumptions you make, together with the question of my grandmother who by the way was an absolute fabulous teacher to her own eight children.

    No there is no proven efficacy of any teaching method for children with ASD. Even the so called peer reviewed reports of the Lovaas and Smith types dont actually prove anything. No one system can teach ALL children with ASD.

    Which is where teacch is incredibly behind the times and so very damaging.

    Yes of course there are teachers who can teach, millions of them. But, what has that got to do with the methodology of teacch?

    The sarcasm is noted and is really not needed in this discussion, as it serves no purpose. If you have something to say, say it and perhaps refrain from that “lowest form of wit”.

    #5377

    Anonymous

    ‘No one system can teach ALL children with ASD’
    Your grandmother may have been a fabulous teacher to her own eight children but could have been an appalling teacher to mine (and that’s no disrespect to your grandmother)
    Just because TEACCH wasn’t right for your child or ‘umpteen’ others doesn’t mean it hasn’t worked wonders in a large number of cases.
    Anyway, I’m off to join Mr Mesibov on his yacht to sip champagne and help him spend the astronomical amount of money he’s made.
    PS There is ‘no proven efficacy’ that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, but it is fun…

    #5331

    Anonymous

    The point being, there is no PROOF that teacch has had any efficacy for any child. Children are not tracked, measurements are not made public.

    Parents are not screaming for teacch, they arent on the web DEMANDING teacch, why not? Who wants it, its a dumping ground for children whose parents havent copped on to the fact that its crap. Poor parents and i dont blame them. Unless a parent has the time money and energy to investigate what is truly right for their child, the teacch schools sit there lying in wait for these poor unsuspecting parents to fill their seats.

    Makes me truly ill. If parents asked questions, they wont get answers. there are no answers emanating from mesibov and co cause they know its all a load of rubbish. The autistic adult community needs to get on board with this and start telling the school boards and government what rubbish teacch really is. BUt, we dont have a lot of autistic adults who have gone through the teacch program, and hey, guess what NOBODY LISTENS TO AUTISTIC ADULTS do they???

    For those adults who have gone through the teacch program, will they have the ability to make their voices heard or are they out there somewhere consulting their visual schedules and living in residential homes with no access to publicly expressing themselves in a way that can be heard???

    Teacch promotes a self fulfilling prophesy, that autism is this “lifelong disabling” condition. Yep, if you send your kid to a teacch school, it certainly will be.

    There is no hope with teacch. If you want a robot, and you want your child to “stay” autistic in every way, send them to teacch.

    Parents are going to wise up to teacch, dont know when, for many it will be too late.

    the government has a responsibility to give our children education. teacch is not education, its “damage control”.

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